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标题: [业评] SE表示日本厂商的技术实力并不比欧美差 [打印本页]

作者: dogsoldier 时间: 2008-4-17 15:17 标题: SE表示日本厂商的技术实力并不比欧美差

因《最終幻想XIII》而為世人所熟知的白色引擎，在今年的遊戲開發者會議上正式更名為水晶工具（Crystal Tools）。盡管Square Enix和Capcom這樣的廠商都已經開始研發自己的遊戲引擎，但面對來自歐美的強大競爭壓力，許多人對日本遊戲廠商的技術實力表示擔心。

  然而Square Enix顯然並不這樣認為，負責公司技術研發工作同時也是水晶工具開發主管的村田琢日前在接受Gamasutra記者采訪時表示，日本廠商的技術實力決不比歐美差。

  村田琢對記者說：“直到PS3發售以前，談到次世代主機遊戲開發，是的，我承認日本的遊戲開發技術由於經驗上的空白以及PC遊戲市場基礎的不足的而落後於歐美。然而在那以後，事情的面貌發生了很大改觀。現在，我認為隨著PC架構和技術的發展，我們已經走到了前列。”

  他繼續補充道：“談到語言方面的障礙，是的，我認為現階段依然存在著挑戰。我們在交流上依然面臨著問題，但談到技術領域，我不認為我們落後於其他人。我們已經克服了以往所面臨的困難，或者說我們已經攻克了難關並取得了進展。”

http://beta.levelup.cn/news/NewsDetails/2008-4-17/28098.shtml

责任编辑：曹妇科

作者: czzj12345 时间: 2008-4-17 15:20

责任编辑：曹妇科
:D

作者: czzj12345 时间: 2008-4-17 15:21

妇科不知道用的什么引擎

作者: ffcactus 时间: 2008-4-17 15:28

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=18246

Q&A: Square Enix's Murata Talks Crystal Tools, Unreal Engine Initiatives
Originally known as the White Engine, Square-Enix's Crystal Tools initiative has taken shape over the past few years as one of its key efforts to standardize cross-platform technology for its forthcoming titles, being used not only for Final Fantasy XIII, but also its forthcoming MMO.

While the company has also licensed Unreal Engine 3 for some future development, Crystal Tools general manager Taku Murata has previously said that its internal engine was designed to cater strongly to the demands of Square Enix's developers.

To learn more about the history of the effort, why Square has licensed Unreal Engine, and whether Japan is being held back by not licensing locally developed technology, Gamasutra talked with Murata, who elaborated on how the work behind Crystal Tools was an amalgamation of all the experiences gained on working on large scale productions like Final Fantasy.

To begin, can you give me some of your history in games?

TM: Since I joined Square, I've done Secret of Mana, and the second in the series of that -- Seiken Densetsu 3 -- I don't know if it's been released here. Also Final Fantasy Tactics and Vagrant Story. I was the lead programmer. I was also the director of PlayOnline, and technical supervisor for Final Fantasy XII.

Why did you decide to change the name of Square Enix’s internal engine from White Engine to Crystal Tools?

TM: Actually, the initial name that we used -- White Engine -- we just used it as like a code name. But in September of 2007, version 1.0 was released. At the time, we were trying to figure out the official name for that, and we wanted to come up with something that would reflect the company. "Crystal" is something that we wanted to use, because it many different colors, so we wanted to use that meaning too. That also sounds like our company too, Crystal.

How challenging was it to build this engine? Did you build it completely from scratch? If not, what resources did you have previously? Or was it just completely designed from the ground up?

TM: Actually, we didn't use any resources. We started from scratch. It's basically all based on our experiences. We kind of picked what we found was effective or useful, so we basically put all these good things in this one engine together.

What were the most important considerations for Square Enix, in terms of developing an engine? How did you make the engine versatile for the type of games that Square Enix wants to make going forward?

TM: Actually, we didn't consider making a base that can work for all titles. Not to cover everything, but to cover the base. Then we have the ability to use plug-ins that can accommodate other tools. Depending on the title, you can always just add something else that doesn't exist in this one.

It's always a challenge to do multiplatform -- how did you address the multiplatform issue for contemporary systems?

TM: Actually, there's SPUs for PS3, and multicore for 360 already [optimized]. What really matters is the size of VRAM. But the VRAM size can be handled by adjusting texture sizing, so that can be taken care of. In that sense, I don't think it's that big of a deal that you have to start with the PS3, technically. The PS3 is a very powerful machine, and it's very expansive. So as long as the converting process can be handled correctly, it shouldn't be a problem.

A lot of companies in Japan have mentioned that they feel that the Japanese game market is falling behind in terms of technology, partially because PC development and advances in that sort of technology have been happening mostly in Western markets, and support is in English. This engine, though, seems quite high-end. It's very unusual within the Japanese industry right now. Do you agree with that?

TM: Until the PS3 was launched, regarding the 360 and PS3, it is true. I agree that maybe Japanese game technology is behind because there were no previous experiences, or a base in that PC market in Japan back then. Since then, things have changed. Now, I think it has come to a point when the PC architecture and technologies have advanced, particularly in terms of the Japanese way of expression, such as, "In this game, we feel very strongly that we are very capable."

I do think that in terms of the language barrier, yes, it still is a challenge. We do face those challenges in terms of communication, but in terms of technology, I don't think we're behind. We probably have conquered that problem...or probably we have gone across that point and advanced.

Why did the company also license Unreal Engine 3?

TM: We used the Unreal Engine for The Last Remnant because we had a particular Western -- European and American -- market in mind. I believe that the game engine reflected the culture and philosophy of the market, and the creator.

Actually, I wouldn't say that we would use Crystal Tools for everything. To create Final Fantasy, yes, Crystal Tools is ideal and it's good. But for other titles, we could use other engines as well. In that sense, it's always an option to use another method. Also, I don't mean that the Crystal Tools can only create Final Fantasy.

Could you elaborate more on how you say this engine is particular to the Japanese mindset? Is that in terms of the pipeline and workflow?

TM: Maybe I shouldn't say it's very Japanese-like. That's probably too vague. I'll say it's very Square-like. All the experiences that we've gained from large-scale production of Final Fantasy is being input into this engine.

Considering that Japan's developers have complained about Western engines being primarily in English, would you ever consider licensing out the Crystal Tools to other developers, like Epic does in America?

TM: We have considered that option, but at this point, considering preparing the documentation and the support costs, even if we don't think it's impossible...at this point, we are not doing that.

In terms of in the future, if you were to license the tech, you'd probably be the first company to license an engine in Japan. Do you think that this kind of thing would be accepted at this point? Because I know in the past it was very difficult to share technology in a public way over there.

TM: Things have changed compared to before. Koei actually licensed the Dynasty Warriors engine for Dynasty Warriors: Gundam. Capcom's MT Framework, I think they're licensing that too. Things have changed, so we're not the first one.

Why do you think this change has come about? It's all quite recent, within the last couple of years, I think.

TM: It's only my personal point of view, but before, they used to just own their own technology without sharing, and that's how they kept their play safe. But recently, they have probably realized the importance of sharing information on technology between developers, particularly for the next-generation consoles. It used to be that the European and American markets have strong PC backgrounds, so they're much stronger in that sense. So probably Japanese developers have realized that as well.

What do you see as the benefits of licensing an engine, versus building your own in-house? There's a lot of debate about that, even in the western market right now.

TM: It's much quicker to buy something, to purchase something that's already existing. That's easy, and it's probably less expensive than to create your own. The benefit behind having an internally designed tool is basically... the Crystal Tools we have developed because we wanted to use all the know-how that we have gained from experience in the past with the Final Fantasy series. We wanted to get all of the good experiences put into these tools. That's the benefit of this tool.

For existing licenses, do you feel it’s worth the trouble when you have to actually learn how to use it and fit it into your pipeline? It may be quicker to get, but it's harder to make it work right for you.

TM: That's why the Crystal Tools are much more familiar for Square Enix people.

作者: 馊狗输辱法 时间: 2008-4-17 15:43

如果真能做到，只能说明SE是个特例，SE的财力毕竟比其他日商大，技术落后可以拿钱买

其他日商还有哪个？
CAPCOM是墙头草，很早就在捣鼓NGC的高端机能，又很早傍上了360
TECMO一直傍着微软
KONAMI的实况已经砸了，合金装备4的画面也不被看好（不过SONY貌似赞助了不少钱）

作者: 马甲雷 时间: 2008-4-17 15:45

这个我还是用a9的回答。

这一点我相信。

技术上，日本厂商不会落后欧米同行多少。

只不过现在摆在日本厂面前最大的问题并不是技术。

而是为了这技术投入值得不值得的问题。

你下了血本玩技术，结果亏得死去活来，别的厂商不玩技术，哈哈大笑着赚钱，搁在谁眼里不把前者当傻瓜蛋？

作者: ffcactus 时间: 2008-4-17 15:48

引用:

原帖由 马甲雷 于 2008-4-17 15:45 发表
这个我还是用a9的回答。

这一点我相信。

技术上，日本厂商不会落后欧米同行多少。

只不过现在摆在日本厂面前最大的问题并不是技术。

而是为了这技术投入值得不值得的问题。

你下了血本玩技术，结果亏 ...

科学技术是第一生产力。这一点不会改变。
玩技术最后亏死，那是经营问题。
不思进取，不追求技术，最后只有被别人玩的份，这一点放在那里都适用。

[ 本帖最后由 ffcactus 于 2008-4-17 15:52 编辑 ]

作者: chenke 时间: 2008-4-17 15:50

PS2獨占vif1总线，不走vu1，通過高帶寬來換容量的游戲

我目前知道有2個：戰神 GT4

代價就一個----------砸錢

所以我認為日美技術差別不大，關鍵是投入多少資金的問題

作者: 倍舒爽 时间: 2008-4-17 16:00

光嘴硬有毛用啊。。。
看人家geow2，显卡危机一有新东西就立马大show！

所以说你se半天拉不出一颗屎。。

作者: 马甲雷 时间: 2008-4-17 16:07

引用:

原帖由 ffcactus 于 2008-4-17 03:48 PM 发表

科学技术是第一生产力。这一点不会改变。
玩技术最后亏死，那是经营问题。
不思进取，不追求技术，最后只有被别人玩的份，这一点放在那里都适用。

问题在于，在商业场上，只有能出效益的才能被视为技术。没有效益甚至负效益的东西，你再怎么强辩那是技术，也没有人会给你投钱承认你是技术。

这正如同在战场上，你拼命去研究如何让士兵不眠不休，个个钢筋铁骨的天使尘药方，倒不如人家研究出tank这个铁罐头更实用更受军队青睐。你可以叫嚷你的技术用的更先进，但对于军队来说没用。它就不是技术，至少不是人家军队需要的技术。换言之游戏界，同样如此。

没有实用性，不能真正获取效益的技术，形同牛粪。还无法肥田。

作者: 牡丹 时间: 2008-4-17 16:08

SE还敢称技术力？

作者: 天师教教徒乙 时间: 2008-4-17 16:09

，那买的Unreal引擎不准备用了？

作者: ffcactus 时间: 2008-4-17 16:10

引用:

原帖由 马甲雷 于 2008-4-17 16:07 发表

问题在于，在商业场上，只有能出效益的才能被视为技术。没有效益甚至负效益的东西，你再怎么强辩那是技术，也没有人会给你投钱承认你是技术。

这正如同在战场上，你拼命去研究如何让士兵不眠不休，个个钢筋铁 ...

原来现在的图形显示技术，以及目前高清主机所运用的各种先进技术，统统都毫无意义，very good, very big strong.

HALO3, GOW, COD4, 以及随后的 GT5P, MGS，FF，都将受到广大玩家的欢迎，代表先进技术的游戏正在取代传统游戏。
而小儿科游戏也必将让位于主流。

[ 本帖最后由 ffcactus 于 2008-4-17 16:14 编辑 ]

作者: dogsoldier 时间: 2008-4-17 16:11

准备用的，因为UE3更能反映西方的文化哲学

最后的剩饭

作者: 天师教教徒乙 时间: 2008-4-17 16:11

引用:

原帖由 马甲雷 于 2008-4-17 16:07 发表

问题在于，在商业场上，只有能出效益的才能被视为技术。没有效益甚至负效益的东西，你再怎么强辩那是技术，也没有人会给你投钱承认你是技术。

这正如同在战场上，你拼命去研究如何让士兵不眠不休，个个钢筋铁 ...

一个成功的技术背后不知道有多少失败的技术尝试，失败是成功他妈这句话无论什么时候都是管用的，简单的二分法:D :D :D :D

作者: foxhounds 时间: 2008-4-17 16:12

SE说的的嘉妇康吧

作者: 马甲雷 时间: 2008-4-17 16:17

要想证明它有意义，拿出市场的实际效益来。

对么？

如果是让你这么看重“图形显示技术”、“目前高清主机所运用的各种先进科技”，那么理所应当应该引发实效益爆发，一个讲求画面的ps3大作横空出世，用铁铮铮的实际销量把wiisports踩在脚下，这不是科学技术乃第一生产力的最直观证明么！

费了半天啦劲，投入千万钱财，卖的那个渣样，你怎么体现价值，体现生产力啊？你生产出了什么价值了？？

对不对啊？

你倒是会挑，只不过为什么您心中这些象征科技的大作偏偏卖不过一个毫无技术含量的任天狗呢？

剩下的这些还没推出的东西就不需要您预定胜利了，它们能不能赢还是未知数呢。就算能赢，也是借祖上余辉，换个名字它们还敢吹牛13么？

[ 本帖最后由马甲雷于 2008-4-17 16:21 编辑 ]

作者: 马甲雷 时间: 2008-4-17 16:23

引用:

原帖由 天师教教徒乙 于 2008-4-17 04:11 PM 发表

一个成功的技术背后不知道有多少失败的技术尝试，失败是成功他妈这句话无论什么时候都是管用的，简单的二分法:D :D :D :D

那就是另一回事了，失败的技术被扫地出门是很常见的。

我们是很实用主义的功利之徒，我们只承认胜利者。如此而已。

作者: ffcactus 时间: 2008-4-17 16:25

目前代表先进游戏图像技术的统统都大卖，这已经是非常好的开端了。
马克思主义哲学观，或者说几乎所有的哲学观都认为，先进的新事物代替就事物必将出现一个艰难的斗争过程，旧事物哪怕出现逆袭，但最终也将被淘汰。而现在的情况非常好，很明显代表先进图像技术的游戏一出来就受到了人们的普遍欢迎。
莫非马甲雷想和马列主义对抗吗:D

作者: fg001 时间: 2008-4-17 16:27

疯了语无伦次了

啥时候再来个量子物理学就完美了

作者: 馊狗输辱法 时间: 2008-4-17 16:27

引用:

原帖由 倍舒爽 于 2008-4-17 16:00 发表
光嘴硬有毛用啊。。。
看人家geow2，显卡危机一有新东西就立马大show！

所以说你se半天拉不出一颗屎。。

当心SE崩出段CG给你闻闻

作者: ffcactus 时间: 2008-4-17 16:27

很明显，现在是任地狱最后风光的时候了，此后而人们必将迎来一个新的黎明。:D

作者: 到处看着 时间: 2008-4-17 16:28

技术的市场不属于老任，只能说老任开拓了另外一个市场并且与原来的游戏市场越走越远．而Ｓ，ＭＳ还在其中．

作者: cc0128 时间: 2008-4-17 16:30

引用:

原帖由 ffcactus 于 2008-4-17 15:48 发表

科学技术是第一生产力。这一点不会改变。
玩技术最后亏死，那是经营问题。
不思进取，不追求技术，最后只有被别人玩的份，这一点放在那里都适用。

的确，不思进取的被玩惨了

作者: 马甲雷 时间: 2008-4-17 16:50

引用:

原帖由 ffcactus 于 2008-4-17 04:25 PM 发表
目前代表先进游戏图像技术的统统都大卖，这已经是非常好的开端了。
马克思主义哲学观，或者说几乎所有的哲学观都认为，先进的新事物代替就事物必将出现一个艰难的斗争过程，旧事物哪怕出现逆袭，但最终也将被淘汰。 ...

哦？我怎么没见到失落的奥x塞大卖啊？怎么没见到《失败时刻》和《发哥》多么销量大牌啊？

不要忘记唯物辩证法还表达过“世界的发展规律并不只有一个方向”的意思。即便是同为资产阶级革命，也分君主立宪、联邦合众与共和制等数种。而辩证唯物主义更提出量变质变的区别，量变是积累，量变的最终结果是质变。当然，也许当时那些地主说我比以前更善待农民，比资本家盘剥工人好多了。那能改变封建制向资本主义制度转变的步伐么？

现在，也许是有一部分人很受用您的封建主义善待，不过事实证明还是人家资本主义引发的生产力更为巨大。您说呢？

作者: 马甲雷 时间: 2008-4-17 16:52

引用:

原帖由 到处看着 于 2008-4-17 04:28 PM 发表
技术的市场不属于老任，只能说老任开拓了另外一个市场并且与原来的游戏市场越走越远．而Ｓ，ＭＳ还在其中．

谁赢了，谁才是技术，谁输了，谁p也不是。ok？

作者: Pires 时间: 2008-4-17 19:06

难怪se的cg越来越精美了

作者: 超越神的牛肉人 时间: 2008-4-17 19:12

呸

作者: Ophelia 时间: 2008-4-17 19:39

游戏开发不是纯粹的软件开发，游戏制作更不是纯粹的技术生产。。。

作者: superjay 时间: 2008-4-17 20:28

很明显要么技术上出群, 要么创意上卓越, 在全世界都受欢迎

那些技术不称雄, 创意无亮点的厂商, 高不成低不就，才是千夫所指, 四面楚歌

作者: 一条僵尸 时间: 2008-4-17 21:59

有用的技术才能推动社会的发展。完毕。

作者: 小水 时间: 2008-4-17 22:18

引用:

原帖由 马甲雷 于 2008-4-17 16:50 发表

哦？我怎么没见到失落的奥x塞大卖啊？怎么没见到《失败时刻》和《发哥》多么销量大牌啊？

不要忘记唯物辩证法还表达过“世界的发展规律并不只有一个方向”的意思。即便是同为资产阶级革命，也分君主立宪、联邦 ...

方向的不同是理想向现实妥协的不同结果，而技术的索尼把玩家的理想变成了现实，作为客观人士，就完全没必要向三坟和三红妥协了:D

作者: 小水 时间: 2008-4-17 22:20

引用:

原帖由 马甲雷 于 2008-4-17 16:52 发表

谁赢了，谁才是技术，谁输了，谁p也不是。ok？

此言颇让人感到欣慰，PS2仍然是最大的赢家，“伪”屁都不是:D :D

作者: 耶稣复临 时间: 2008-4-17 22:37

责任编辑：曹妇科

作者: DvRyu 时间: 2008-4-17 22:40

这种话从SE嘴里说出来，毫无说服力啊。。。

作者: ddr911 时间: 2008-4-17 22:41

SE算个P,
卡普空都没说话呢.

作者: wolf74 时间: 2008-4-18 08:04

引用:

原帖由 superjay 于 2008-4-17 20:28 发表
很明显要么技术上出群, 要么创意上卓越, 在全世界都受欢迎

那些技术不称雄, 创意无亮点的厂商, 高不成低不就，才是千夫所指, 四面楚歌

这句话有道理，所以说即便目前来说老任背离了高清这个发展方向，但是其创意还是无人可比，所以卖的好，而技术是可以用钱砸的，创意就难了。

作者: 马甲雷 时间: 2008-4-18 08:21

引用:

原帖由小水于 2008-4-17 10:18 PM 发表

方向的不同是理想向现实妥协的不同结果，而技术的索尼把玩家的理想变成了现实，作为客观人士，就完全没必要向三坟和三红妥协了:D

所以ps3卖得最差……:D 好宏伟的现实！:D

作者: 马甲雷 时间: 2008-4-18 08:22

引用:

原帖由小水于 2008-4-17 10:20 PM 发表

此言颇让人感到欣慰，PS2仍然是最大的赢家，“伪”屁都不是:D :D

谁让全世界人民把ps2算成上一代主机呢？
:D

作者: arex 时间: 2008-4-18 08:27

拿东西说话，东西都出不来还谈啥技术，现在日商也就CAPCOM技术还行。暗耻啥的基本还是PS2水平高清化。

作者: 大头木 时间: 2008-4-18 09:06

技术的锁你

作者: 王总 时间: 2008-4-18 09:22

SONY被MS带到坑里去了 ,太看重什么机能,开发门槛巨高,日系中小厂商根本玩不起,现在的主打产品也成了枪车球一类,和MS的长项硬扛,简直是愚蠢.事实证明还是任天堂目前的机制比较适合日系厂商.任天堂代表的日系作品依然横扫全球.不服不行.

作者: 江北恐龙 时间: 2008-4-18 09:39

引用:

原帖由 马甲雷 于 2008-4-17 16:52 发表

谁赢了，谁才是技术，谁输了，谁p也不是。ok？

COD4的销量是不如WII SPORTS多，这就说明它P也不是了么？实在太极端的想法了

作者: yalpbz 时间: 2008-4-18 09:44

COD4的销量太神了

作者: allensakura 时间: 2008-4-18 09:46

引用:

原帖由王总于 2008-4-18 09:22 发表
SONY被MS带到坑里去了 ,太看重什么机能,开发门槛巨高,日系中小厂商根本玩不起,现在的主打产品也成了枪车球一类,和MS的长项硬扛,简直是愚蠢.事实证明还是任天堂目前的机制比较适合日系厂商.任天堂代表的日系作品依然横 ...

PS2出生時XBOX還在吃奶呢
久多就是想玩技術，哪知道搞到最後MS技高一籌，SONY技術底子不足的事實就這樣出來了

作者: cloudchilya 时间: 2008-4-18 10:38

因为，我们是
技术的锁你口牙！！！

作者: GAYBL 时间: 2008-4-18 10:40

SE的技术暂时没看出来。

作者: 超越梦想 时间: 2008-4-18 11:34

日商能说这话的我只信卡普空

作者: YY小熊猫 时间: 2008-4-18 11:43

SEX厂也配提技术？在岛国都算二三流吧？也就只能找找暗荣、眼镜厂之类垫背了。过了次世代门槛的也就CAPCOM了，老任和TECMO不算，本来一个就有强力第二方，另一个是MS二奶。AM2勉强及格，其余没一个合格的。

[ 本帖最后由 YY小熊猫于 2008-4-18 11:44 编辑 ]

作者: 索尼反装x 时间: 2008-4-18 11:54

引用:

原帖由 超越梦想 于 2008-4-18 11:34 发表
日商能说这话的我只信卡普空

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